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Post by Katatonia on Jun 15, 2009 1:13:11 GMT -5
Mutants
WE ARE THE GINYU FORCE!
Mutants can be specialized in either one or two of the following...
-Endurance (how well they take a hit, whether physical or ki/energy)
-Ki Capacity (how long they can last)
-Skill (how much they can dodge, and how hard their physical attacks are to dodge)
-Damage (how hard both physical and ki attacks hit)
-Speed (how fast they move)
-Ki Power (ki attacks are boosted, and they can take ki attacks better)
-Physical Strength (physical attacks are boosted, and they can take physical attacks better)
If one ability was picked, the mutant is considered at 120% of their Post Count, but only for that one ability.
If two abilities were picked, the mutant is considered at 110% of their Post Count, but only for those two abilities.
Secondly, instead of gaining transformations, a mutant starts with TWO signature techniques, and gains an additional 20% to the ability of their choice from above every 1000 posts... or 10% for two abilities.
However, Ki Capacity cannot go higher than 120%.
As for their downsides... mutants start with one of the above abilities reduced by 20%, and can't use desperations. However, when a mutant reaches the point when they would be able to unlock a desperation, their reduced ability is canceled out.
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Post by Katatonia on Jun 15, 2009 13:39:30 GMT -5
Remodified.
Oh and Ki Capacity is nerfed because it's the only thing no other race can increase with transformations... in fact transformations generally reduce ki capacity over time anyways.
Hence it's overpowered to let them gain Ki Capacity at the same rate as everything else and outmaneuver an opponent until they fall exhausted for easy beatings.
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Post by Shen on Jun 16, 2009 12:02:56 GMT -5
I still think they're overpowered as a minion race. A mutant who's reached 9000 posts can easily fight toe to toe with a main that's reached their first major. While every other minion (even the ones that can transform at 9000) are stuck at a 1.3 disadvantage against the same opponent. It's a very good thing that none of the mutants in this saga have a combination of 140% speed and 120% strength, otherwise they'd be impossible to beat without serious gangbanging. They'd be able to fight toe to toe with mains that are still using their first major transformation as well.
Unless mutants as a minion race are just supposed to be really powerful. It's already established that theres alot of imbalances between the minion races, so if this was the way mutants were meant to be, ignore what I said.
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Post by Majin Cajabe on Jun 16, 2009 12:10:04 GMT -5
I still think they're overpowered as a minion race. A mutant who's reached 9000 posts can easily fight toe to toe with a main that's reached their first major. While every other minion (even the ones that can transform at 9000) are stuck at a 1.3 disadvantage against the same opponent. It's a very good thing that none of the mutants in this saga have a combination of 140% speed and 120% strength, otherwise they'd be impossible to beat without serious gangbanging. They'd be able to fight toe to toe with mains that are still using their first major transformation as well. Unless mutants as a minion race are just supposed to be really powerful. It's already established that theres alot of imbalances between the minion races, so if this was the way mutants were meant to be, ignore what I said. Mutants > Saiyans, so yah it's sort of intentional to a point, though there's only so much I can do without condemning them to fall behind later on. Anyways, thanks for giving me more reason to deny Oryan the 'intermediate' stat-ups. XD |
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Post by Majin Cajabe on Jun 16, 2009 12:28:48 GMT -5
Okay fixed, all mutants will need to pick a defected ability until they reach desperation level.
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Post by Issilude on Jun 16, 2009 16:46:38 GMT -5
I can understand making mutants choose a weakness, but do you have to get rid of desperations, too? Couldn't you just make it so they have to level up that stat like the others?
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Post by Lethenir Vanether on Jun 16, 2009 19:03:00 GMT -5
I still think they're overpowered as a minion race. A mutant who's reached 9000 posts can easily fight toe to toe with a main that's reached their first major. While every other minion (even the ones that can transform at 9000) are stuck at a 1.3 disadvantage against the same opponent. It's a very good thing that none of the mutants in this saga have a combination of 140% speed and 120% strength, otherwise they'd be impossible to beat without serious gangbanging. They'd be able to fight toe to toe with mains that are still using their first major transformation as well. Unless mutants as a minion race are just supposed to be really powerful. It's already established that theres alot of imbalances between the minion races, so if this was the way mutants were meant to be, ignore what I said. Mutants > Saiyans, so yah it's sort of intentional to a point, though there's only so much I can do without condemning them to fall behind later on. Anyways, thanks for giving me more reason to deny Oryan the 'intermediate' stat-ups. XD Okay, so they are overpowered as a minion race. What are you gonna do when one reaches Main Character status? |
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Post by Project Harvest on Jun 17, 2009 0:26:54 GMT -5
Level up by gaining a desperation instead of another ability-up?
Hmm... works.
And LV... I dunno. XD
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Post by Shiro on Jun 17, 2009 9:53:46 GMT -5
No, I meant start them off with a Desperation, but don't automatically boost the stat they're weak in, they have to raise it the same way as the other stats.
As for Lethenir's problem, why not have them start growing slow, like 10% or 15%, and raise it once they've reached main status? You could also limit them to one sig as a minion and give them another as a main.
Also, we should probably put an upper limit on Ki Capacity, something no one can go past.
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Post by Shen on Jun 17, 2009 10:17:56 GMT -5
I like Shiro's idea of having them start off slow, then picking up the pace once they hit main character status.
Mutants should not be allowed to go to 150% ki capacity, because that means they have as much stamina as a majin/mystic
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Post by Lethenir Vanether on Jun 17, 2009 10:21:06 GMT -5
No, I meant start them off with a Desperation, but don't automatically boost the stat they're weak in, they have to raise it the same way as the other stats. As for Lethenir's problem, why not have them start growing slow, like 10% or 15%, and raise it once they've reached main status? You could also limit them to one sig as a minion and give them another as a main. Also, we should probably put an upper limit on Ki Capacity, something no one can go past. As far as the weakness goes, that's definitely a HUGE drawback for a race with no transformations. Yeah, you could raise it up to base, but I much prefer Caj's idea of making the weakness resolve itself after enough posts have been made. I'm not saying they should give up their desperation to get rid of the weakness, but the weakness, the lack of desperation, and how they have to overcome the weakness are good ideas. The gaining of the Desp and the second Sig Tech could be saved for when they hit main character status. The increase in boost percentages is a good idea, too, IMO. Minions should, for all intents and purposes, be weaker than mains. So making the boosts smaller during their time as a minion and stronger once they become main seems fitting. Minion transes are weaker than main transes, so that part balances out. 15% every 1,000 posts as a minion? Sounds good to me. Increase this to 20% or 25% once they reach main? I'm still working for those intermediate boosts. Even a single boost of 5% to one stat. I just want something in the middle, even in the case of mutant minions. Perhaps this could also increase to 10% upon becoming a main character. There's a If then limit on every stat already in place, Shiro. That effectively puts a cap on everything. All of your stats have to be at a certain level before you can increase any of your stats further. That's limit enough, IMO. Ki capacity is especially limited. If all this doesn't work out, then perhaps a Point-buy system could be implemented. If anyone's ever played DnD, or even most d20 variants, then there is a system set up where a play is given a set number of points. Upgrading an attribute score, or in this case the ability %, costs so many points. The cost of increasing an attribute score increases as you increase that attribute score. In order to become stronger in one attribute, you have to spend more to increase it. A system like that would effectively prevent people from becoming too overpowered since, in order to become incredibly strong in one stat, they'd have to spend almost all their points on one stat/ability/attribute score. |
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Post by Majin Cajabe on Jun 17, 2009 10:55:57 GMT -5
If anyone hasn't noticed, I've prevented raising of a stat two times above any other stat.
40% = 2 increases.
Or 20% for Ki Capacity (you double it for comparison purposes when seeing if you can raise it).
But Shen has a point with capping Ki Capacity anyways... limit to 120% and then making it go to 150% (add on 30% to whatever the character has) upon Majinification at the expense of the delay and senzu drawback.
Anyways, I'll work something out, I guess... but right now I'm about to go home so I don't have the time, lolbai. XD
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Post by Issilude on Jun 17, 2009 11:21:52 GMT -5
If anyone hasn't noticed, I've prevented raising of a stat two times above any other stat. 40% = 2 increases. Or 20% for Ki Capacity (you double it for comparison purposes when seeing if you can raise it). Doesn't that mean you can't start out with 140% in one stat, since you'd have 60% more than your weakened stat? Also, Zhyne, having a lowered stat wouldn't necessarily be a huge disadvantage. Mutants are meant to specialize. They're going to have stats that place them above other races at the same level of post counts, even if you factor in trans. However, they'll also need to have stats lower than average to balance out. Take Issilude for instance. He's designed to be a 'mage' class, long range, powerful ki attacks, but almost no physical capabilities. Since I don't plan on having him get up close and fight, I don't need anything in Strength or Endurance, so I focus everything in Ki Power, Capacity, and a little Speed. Ideally, at 11000 posts, he'd look something like this: Ki Power: 140% Ki Capacity: 120% (Maxed) Speed: 120% Damage: 100% Endurance: 100% Strength: 80% Yes, he's screwed if he's stuck in a melee fight. Yes, he can't take a hit to save his life. But his Ki Power is 16% higher than a super saiyan's and he maintain it without any effort. Pair him with someone like Ecky and you've got the perfect team. Manage to catch him on his own, however, and he's dead in five seconds. Really, I don't think losing 20% in one stat, or even two, is much of a problem, so long as you set it up so it doesn't interfere with your fighting style. |
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Post by Majin Cajabe on Jun 17, 2009 11:49:05 GMT -5
As to the very first point... no, because it says it applies to increasing stats. I worded it carefully for that Shiro.  |
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Post by Issilude on Jun 17, 2009 11:52:27 GMT -5
Ah, well you didn't for the description in this topic, so it confused me.
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Post by Oryan Kaishin on Jun 17, 2009 11:53:00 GMT -5
Shiro, having a 20% disadvantage in one stat is pretty much gonna screw you, because you can bet your ass that people are going to metagame like bitches into 'finding out' your character's weakness.
Starting out with a weakness I don't mind, but being able to get rid of said weakness is needed at some point.
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Post by Issilude on Jun 17, 2009 11:58:02 GMT -5
Then wait until you reach 1000 posts, then get rid of it. And it doesn't matter if they find out the weakness, because you've still got the advantage in your strengths. They'll try to force you to fight their way, so you try to force them to fight your way.
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Post by Kumori Seishou on Jun 17, 2009 12:03:15 GMT -5
Then wait until you reach 1000 posts, then get rid of it. And it doesn't matter if they find out the weakness, because you've still got the advantage in your strengths. They'll try to force you to fight their way, so you try to force them to fight your way. If you can provide proof that this strategy works, then I will consider my argument m00t, otherwise it stands. And we all know that people will metagame for this reason. It needs no proving. |
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Post by Issilude on Jun 17, 2009 12:17:35 GMT -5
The only way I'd be able to provide proof is to actually fight under those conditions.
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Post by Lethenir Vanether on Jun 17, 2009 12:30:41 GMT -5
I know. And if the mutant race has to have a lowered ability, then you'll have plenty of opportunities, as will I.
Also if I'm coming off as harsh, I'm not trying to be. Just trying to make the Mutant race fair and balanced, which is much more difficult than I originally expected.
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Post by Majin Cajabe on Jun 17, 2009 12:36:51 GMT -5
Shiro, having a 20% disadvantage in one stat is pretty much gonna screw you, because you can bet your ass that people are going to metagame like bitches into 'finding out' your character's weakness. Starting out with a weakness I don't mind, but being able to get rid of said weakness is needed at some point. Did you even pay attention? You get rid of it instead of getting a Desperation. |
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Post by Lethenir Vanether on Jun 17, 2009 12:38:16 GMT -5
Shiro, having a 20% disadvantage in one stat is pretty much gonna screw you, because you can bet your ass that people are going to metagame like bitches into 'finding out' your character's weakness. Starting out with a weakness I don't mind, but being able to get rid of said weakness is needed at some point. Did you even pay attention? You get rid of it instead of getting a Desperation. At the moment, that's the way it is. I'm aware. Shiro is trying to make it so that you get your Desp, and you have to use one of your 1,000 post bonuses to get rid of the -20% |
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Post by Issilude on Jun 17, 2009 12:39:01 GMT -5
He was talking about my suggestion to keep desperations and force mutants to raise the lowered stat naturally.
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Post by Katatonia on Jun 17, 2009 12:40:42 GMT -5
He was talking about my suggestion to keep desperations and force mutants to raise the lowered stat naturally. Oh for that I'm just gonna have getting a desperation an option instead of raising a stat. |
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Post by ais on Jun 17, 2009 16:18:10 GMT -5
Okay, I've done the math
Mutants start off with +40% in one area, -20% in one area, or +20%. Since there are seven areas, this means they start with about 3% overall. It takes 3000 posts to reach main level (2000 to become a main, then the thousand free posts), if they gain 35% (5% overall) each thousand, the result is an overall boost of 18%, a little below the average trans boost. If they then gain another 70% (10% overall) each thousand, they'll grow at the same overall rate as other races.
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Post by Katatonia on Jun 17, 2009 16:26:14 GMT -5
Remember that ki capacity is an independent trait from transformations, so you'll have to recalculate and ignore it.
Also, other races have disadvantages, so they'll need to be slightly behind overall to make up, too.
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Post by Issilude on Jun 17, 2009 16:32:24 GMT -5
Replace 35 with 30 and 70 with 60
With those numbers, assuming one doesn't boost ki capacity, the overall boost raises at the same level. So boosting ki capacity would place you slightly lower overall, which seems fair since you can last longer this way. Might I suggest you have people boost more than one stat per thousand?
Now, if we want them to have the equivalent to a 15% trans at main level:
20%/6=3.33% or 3% overall at start
11000-8000=3000 /1000=3 boosts
15%-3%=12% /3 boosts= 4%*6 = 20% per thousand
Then you'd need to increase at about 10% overall
10%*6 stats=60%
Any boosts in ki capacity are made up for by lowering overall power level.
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Post by Issilude on Jun 17, 2009 17:15:28 GMT -5
Okay, let's try this again:
Initial 20%/4 (Speed, Skill, and either Power and Strength or Endurance and Damage)=5%
Goal, 15% in 3 boosts
15-5=10
10/3=3.33
3*4=12 or 3.33*4=13.32
so either 12% or 13% every 1000 posts, after that raise by 40%
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Post by Katatonia on Jun 17, 2009 17:20:07 GMT -5
Double-boost on 11k due to the 10k being counted.
Anyways, hmm... I'll figure this out fully on Friday or another evening or something.
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Post by Issilude on Jun 17, 2009 17:22:09 GMT -5
Double-boost on 11k due to the 10k being counted. What do you mean? |
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